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Visualizza la versione completa : Impianto di piccola cogenerazione per un impresa tessile



ciccio1987
12-01-2014, 11:19
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Mi chiamo Francesco e sono uno studente universitario. Ora vi espongo il mio quesito. Ho realizzato il progetto elettrico di una azienda per la precisione una “confezione” settore tessile. Dopo la e realizzazione dell’intero impianto è uscito dal progetto una potenza totale da 250KW, che si riduce usando i vari coefficienti di utilizzo e contemporaneità a 113kw. L’impresa è dotata anche di cabina elettrica MT/bt con trasformatore da 315KVA. Il problema è questo. IL prof ha chiesto di effettuare una valutazione economica per la realizzazione di un impianto di cogenerazione e qua sorgono i problemi. Il primo problema è quello di andare a valutare la soluzione più conveniente è più remunerativa dal punto di vista economico. Partendo dal presupposto che si parla di piccola cogenerazione con potenza inferiore ad 1MW, quale tipo di combustibile è più conveniente usare? Io avevo pensato tra olio vegetale, sansa ( dato che l’impresa è circondata da oleifici e dunque è facili rifornirsi ) oppure gas metano. Premetto inoltre che il calore dell’impianto verrà usato per riscaldare gli ambienti di lavoro e per due macchinari ossia due stiratrici industriali, con la possibilità di poter cedere calore anche ad altre due imprese adiacenti a questo capannone.
Comincio con queste domande e poi man mano che la discussione prende quota darò altri particolari.

:bye1:

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Sulzer1
12-01-2014, 11:33
Visto che sono in approvazione i decreti attuativi sull'utilizzo del biometano , mi orienterei in quella direzione, evitando le biomasse con tutte le incognite che ne derivano. Per la parte di cogenerazione vai sul sito di GSE e cerca "cogenerazione ad alta efficienza" poi cerchi qui la discussione sul biometano e ti scarichi l'ultima pubblicazione leggendo la parte che riguarda la cogenerazione e la possibilità di immettere e prelevare dalla rete il gas

ciccio1987
12-01-2014, 11:38
Grazie sulzer1 .
Tale guida da te citata l'ho già letta, ti riferisci a questa giusto?
http://www.gse.it/it/GSE_Documenti/Guida%20alla%20Cogenerazione%20ad%20Alto%20Rendime nto%20CAR.pdf
Ora do una lettura alla discussione da te citata, però se avete qualche altro suggerimento è sempre ben accetto :)

Sulzer1
12-01-2014, 11:48
Si, andavo a braccio, e l'ho citata sbagliata. Sarebbe interessante collegarla con la alimentazione del cogeneratore a biometano. Non ti suggerisco di proseguire con un impianto a olio vegetale perchè le tariffe sono troppo basse, non si trova l'olio a prezzi accettabili, le dimensioni sarebbero troppo piccole per un impianto veramente efficiente. Un impianto a biomassa solida di dimensioni così ridotte avrebbe costi fissi proibitivi

ciccio1987
12-01-2014, 12:28
Ma quando parli di biometano, ti riferisci alla produzione e consumo del biometano, oppure all'acquisto diretto del biometano?
Oltretutto non mi è chiara una cosa, gli impianti di cogenerazione a gas metano hanno diritto all'incentivazione?

Sulzer1
12-01-2014, 13:30
Intendo l'acquisto di biometano direttamente dai produttori oppure dal GSE. Gli impianti di cogenerazioni a gas naturale sono incentivati secondo la guida che hai già trovato

ciccio1987
12-01-2014, 16:05
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Oltretutto partendo dai dati di progetto che ti ho fornito e considerando un assorbimento medio di circa 70KW per le 12 ore di lavorazione dell'azienda che possono aumentare fino a 113KW in determinati minuti della giornata, l'impianto che devo considerare di quanti KW dev'essere?
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Sulzer1
12-01-2014, 19:49
Leggi bene la pubblicazione, quando avrai fatto qualche simulazione ti accorgerai che il miglior compromesso si raggiunge cercando di inseguire le esigenze termiche e non quelle elettriche....

ciccio1987
13-01-2014, 08:52
Avrei un altra domanda.
Sempre considerando impianti di piccola o micro cogenerazione è possibile effettuare lo scambio sul posto? E se si, quanto è remunerata l'energia elettrica immessa in rete?

Ok mi rispondo da solo. Dal nuovo V conto energia non possono accedere al servizio di Scambio sul Posto fonti rinnovabili diverse dal fotovoltaico. Per la cogenerazione ad alto rendimento si ha diritto solo ai certificati bianchi per un periodo di 10 anni o di 15 in caso di teleriscaldamento.

Sulzer1
13-01-2014, 10:42
E' un piacere aiutarti perchè non aspetti che ti cada la manna dal cielo. Il consiglio di studiare il regime del biometano deriva dal fatto che dovrebbe consentire di scegliere di produrre energia con la cogenerazione ad alto rendimento ma in alternativa dovrebbe consentirti di produrre con la tariffa omnicomprensiva. Nel secondo caso avresti una remunerazione molto più favorevole e l'energia termica sarebbe pressoché gratuita. naturalmente il tuo committente non potrebbe utilizzare l'energia elettrica prodotta dovendola riversare tutta in rete. Non sono aggiornato e dovresti controllare se è ancora possibile usufruire del regime dei certificati verdi per cui l'utente utilizzerebbe tutta l'energia che gli serve, riversa in rete l'eccesso, ottiene i certificati verdi che vende . Questa ultima opzione sempre con il biometano equiparato alla biomassa

ciccio1987
13-01-2014, 11:10
Grazie della risposta. Sto effettuando altre ricerche sul biometano associato logicamente al caso della cogenerazione, e stavo cercando di capire se si ha diritto ancora alla tariffa onnicomprensiva per quanto riguarda l'energia elettrica dato che sfrutterei tutta l'energia termica per altre applicazioni. Ho trovato anche un altra guida http://www.gse.it/it/Conto%20Termico/GSE_Documenti/Regole%20Applicative%20Conto%20Termico_finale_04.1 2.2013.pdf e devo cercare di capire su quest'ultima se c'è incentivazione o meno. Al massimo se non la capisco mando una mail al gse sperando che mi diano informazioni a tal merito.

ciccio1987
16-01-2014, 10:43
Ci sono novità. Ho scritto al gse per avere chiarmimenti su alcune cose, tra cui lo scambio sulposto ed ecco cosa hanno risposto:


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Inoltre, Le comunichiamo che possono presentare richiesta di scambio sul posto i soggetti titolari di impianti di cogenerazione ad alto rendimento di potenza fino a 200 KW.
Altresì, possono richiedere l’accesso al regime di ritiro dedicato gli impianti alimentati da fonti rinnovabili e non rinnovabili che rispondano alle seguenti condizioni:


potenza apparente nominale inferiore a 10 MVA alimentati da fonti rinnovabili, compresa la produzione imputabile delle centrali ibride;
potenza qualsiasi per impianti che producano energia elettrica dalle seguenti fonti rinnovabili: eolica, solare, geotermica, del moto ondoso, maremotrice, idraulica (limitatamente agli impianti ad acqua fluente);
potenza apparente nominale inferiore a 10 MVA alimentati da fonti non rinnovabili, compresa la produzione non imputabile delle centrali ibride;
potenza apparente nominale uguale o superiore a 10 MVA, alimentati da fonti rinnovabili diverse dalla fonte eolica, solare, geotermica, del moto ondoso, maremotrice e idraulica, limitatamente, per quest’ultima fonte, agli impianti ad acqua fluente, purché nella titolarità di un autoproduttore.



· Le confermiamo che il regime di RID o SSP è cumulabile, per la stessa unità, con i Certificati Bianchi.
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ciccio1987
16-01-2014, 10:47
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:HyphenationZone>14</w:HyphenationZone> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:DoNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>IT</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:DontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <w:DontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w:DontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="&#45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Quindi sarei orientato sul caso di gas metano, e non biometano perchè parlando con un utente del settore, ha setto che l'iter procedurale è più complicato se non si produce sul loco il biogas, oltretutto quest'ultimo avrebbe un costo maggiore.
Ora avrei una domanda. 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marcober
16-01-2014, 11:31
Ciccio..come ti ha detto Sulzer..di solito ci si tara sui consumi TERMICI..che nel caso di specie mi paiono ridicoli..anche se tu parlavi di possibile cessione a terzi..ma questo comporta necessita di rete e contabilizzazione, investimenti che se la macchina è piccola, incidono molto.
E poi sei certo di poter gestire il carico termico dei TERZI (piu di uno?) con le esigenze elettriche del produttore? gia è difficile farlo se le esigenze sono entrambe le tue..
Comunque siccome di parla di PROGETTO ..sulla carta (salvo errori di calcolo) i porgetti funzionano tutti benissimo..

Tuttavia penso che ottenere i TEE su usi termici di TERZI sarà complicatino...

Inoltre TEE devono essere richiesti attraverso una Esco..sia come pratica iniziale..che come gestione dei TEE stessi...non è proprio banale..ha dei costi..e se la taglia è piccola...

Insomma..inizia a dimensionare la macchina...e poi vai avanti.
Una macchina piccola non ha problemi ad essere usata in modo discontinuo..

Tuttavia di solito i porgetti stanno in piedi quando:
- la macchina è medio grande
- le ore di funzionamento sono tante
- usi sempre e comunque tutto il termico

Penso che per te sia importante completare l'analisi, anche se dovesse concludere con una indicazione di non convenienza.

Magari affianca analisi su pannelli FV...che nel caso di impianti medi..a costi ottimizzati..su allacci esistenti..ottimamente esposti..magari al SUD (parli di ulivi)..possono presentare vantaggi economici..magari sula carta meno eclatanti ..ma piu certi, data la banalità di gestione

ciccio1987
16-01-2014, 12:16
Ciao Marco.
La cessione del calore è all'impresa adiacente, ossia un caseificio e di quest'ultimo ho i grafici dell'energia termica annuale spalmati mese per mese. Al momento le caldaie di questo caseificio sono alimentate ad olio combustibile a basso tenore di zolfo se non ricordo male. Dunque l'impresa tessile che al momento non è scaldata da nulla ha la possibilità di scaldarsi tramite l'impianto di cogenerazione con l'acqua calda che finisce all'interno dei boiler, e tutto il resto dell'energia termica viene ceduta all'impresa adiacente. Nel mio caso non si tratta di una progettazione, ma di una valutazione economica della convenienza nell'effettuare un lavoro simile. Da dei calcoli che ho effettuato il cogeneratore dovrebbe lavorare intorno alle 4500 ore l'anno.

marcober
16-01-2014, 12:45
4500 non sono tante.. La taglia della macchina allora quelle sarebbe?

ciccio1987
16-01-2014, 14:35
La taglia della macchina dovrebbe essere tra i 65 e i 100KWe, e come potenza termica recuperabile tra i 120 e i 190KW, con rendimenti della macchina del 90%.

marcober
16-01-2014, 15:44
prova a guardare sul sito di Energifera..

Ma il termico che ti serve è soprattutto acqua calda o vapore? perche "giocattolini" di solito li danno per acqua calda..difficilnete troverai qualcuno che ti costumizza per vapore.

E comunque attento..che anche il termico non lo puoi accumulare piu di tanto..ma nemmeno metterlo in "rete"..per cui lo dovrai fare quando serve al "terzo"..se questo non coincide col tuo picco elettrico..il vantaggio resta nella matita del progettista..e non nel portafogli di ch ha investito..
A poco serve sapere il consumo di gas mensile del caseificio..ma ti serve sapere che tu ora per ora dovrai dare quell'apporto..al massimo potrai sfasarti di un paio di ore usando un mega accumulo e partendo in anticipo..ma non di più
Morale..ritarda la cisterna del latte? stai fermo con impianto...esattamente come farebbero le caldaia ad accumulo pieno, staccano e fanno solo mantenimento..cosa che un motore non puo fare molto bene..

Comunque ..se la macchna fa 190 kwh termici ora e li vendi a 35 euro al mega, vendi 7 euro di calore...se fa 100 kwh di EE la valorizzi a 17 euro.. produci 24 euro ora di energie..se consumi 322 kwh di gas..circa 34 m cubi ora a 0,45, spendi 15 euro.
Guadagni 9 euro ora..per 4500 ore anno sono 40.000 euro

La manutenzione ordinaria costa mi pare 30 euro al mega..13.000 anno..
Se pii si rompe qualche cosa, si paga a parte..
Assicurazioni...
mettiamo che ti avanzano 25.000 euro anno...in quanto tempo si paga la macchina? per me non prima della sua vita utile..

E deve essere tutto perfetto, cioè andare sempre in pieno..massima efficienza..vendita del 100% del termico senza sprechi..ma è ipotizzabile?

ciccio1987
16-01-2014, 16:45
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:HyphenationZone>14</w:HyphenationZone> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:DoNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>IT</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:DontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <w:DontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <w:DontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Servirebbe solo acqua calda e non vapore, quindi sarei propenso ad usare un motore a combustione interna. Fatta questa piccola premessa, il cogeneratore dovrà lavorare quasi sempre in condizioni nominali dato che l'impresa tessile ha una richiesta costante di energia elettrica, e la taglia elettrica del cogeneratore dovrà essere pari se non inferiore all'assorbimento elettrico medio. Quello che al momento non so, è la richiesta termica per scaldare gli ambienti dell'impresa tessile. Per quanto riguarda gli orari della ditta casearia coincidono quasi del tutto con quelli dell’impresa tessile, quindi problemi non ce ne sono sotto questo punto di vista, oltretutto dovrò ipotizzare per loro sempre l’uso della caldaia integrativa per sopperire a mancanze di energia termica proveniente dal cogeneratore in caso di guasti o richiesta superiore di energia termica. Per quanto riguarda il costo del metano defiscalizzato tu sai darmi qualche dritta in merito? So benissimo che sulla carta i progetti funzionano, ma nella realtà …….. ma devo fare di necessità virtù.
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marcober
16-01-2014, 17:11
Ciccio..se punti molto sulla domanda termica per RISCALDAMENTO..secondo me non vai da nessuna parte...perche di solito la domanda per riscaldamento è BREVE (stagionale) e VARIABILE (se fa caldo ne usi molto meno di un giorno freddo)..e che fai?...insegui un carico CLIMATICO?

Il gas defiscalizzato è solo quello relativo alla parte cogenerativa..per cui in base al rendimento elettrico della macchina si fissa il quantitativo di gas che ti spettera con accisa ridotta..il resto va ad accisa piena.
Ma aldila dell'accisa, il costo finale del gas è una variabile..dipende da quanto ne compri..da chi..se fai fisso o variabile..se accetti penali per mancato consumo o no..e quanto elevate.. che profilo di rischio finanziario presenta il cliente.. se consumo è stabile o pensi di usarne piu in inverno...
Insomma..dal prezzo del gas dipende la fattibilita dell'operazione...ma il prezzo del gas vero è difficile da sapere.
Unica strada seria..il cliente finale chiama il distributore locale e chiede offerta di massima sulla stima dei consumi e altri parametri detti prima..

E' piu facile pervenire ad un pizzino di Riina..che avere dati certi sul prezzi del gas di contratti reali in corso..

Sulzer1
16-01-2014, 20:52
Ho scritto di biometano perchè le dimensioni che si prospettavano erano economicamente proibitive per il gas naturale fossile, viste le tariffe e i vincoli come ha ha spiegato Marco. Il vantaggio nella preparazione dello studio viene dal fatto che la parte tecnica è uguale e sono uguali le connessioni. Se e quando saranno approvati i decreti attuativi e saranno chiari i numeri del biometano sarà sufficiente cambiare alcuni parametri nel BP.
Io ( ma è la mia opinione) per le dimensioni di cui si discute e per l'utilizzo discontinuo propenderei, nonostante il rendimento meccanico inferiore, per una microturbina. Magari una Turbec, ha la potenza giusta, gli intervalli e i costi di manutenzione sono 1/5 di quelli di un motore alternativo , la fanno in Italia( è entrata a far parte di Finmeccanica), tenerla in standby è facile e quando è in rete è facile da avviare

ciccio1987
17-01-2014, 12:07
Grazie ragazzi per l'interessamento e per i vari consigli che mi state dando :clapping:.
Comunque mi aggiorno su altri dati e poi vi scrivo. Devo segnalare anche un errata corrige. Oltre l'acqua calda che serve anche per il processo di lavorazione del caseificio ho bisogno anche del vapore. Dai primi dati di calcolo il cogeneratore funzionerà sempre in condizioni nominali dato che la richiesta di energia termica del caseificio è costante durante la lavorazione tranne che nella prima ora del turno di lavoro e le ultime due ore prima della chiusura, dove la richiesta termica diminuisce molto.

marcober
17-01-2014, 13:15
Frequentando caseifici dal 1992 mi pare una castroneria non aver bisogno di vapore....e anche per stirare penso serva...Avrai difficoltà a trovare chi ti costumista un giocattolino per fare anche vapore...ma di certo i costi salgono....fare uno scambiatore da 200 kW e uno da 1 Mega alla fine avrà costi quasi simili...Comunque dai..il progetto val la pena farlo...prova a raccogliere tutto ...chiedi di poter spendere il nome delle due aziende....e sottoponi i dati di massima a qualche coautore, e vediamo che approccio propongono e i costi di massima...

Sulzer1
19-01-2014, 11:25
Naa, c'è vapore e vapore... se pretendi di produrre vapore secco titolato ad alta pressione è un conto. Produrre vapore per stirare e per le mozzarelle non è così complicato.....
Vai avanti come ti ha scritto Marco , non utilizzare i gas di scarico e quando sarai al dunque ti daremo qualche dritta anche per il vapore

ciccio1987
20-01-2014, 15:37
Ragazzi ok vi aggiorno man mano che estrapolo altri dati.

ciccio1987
22-01-2014, 15:02
Ragazzi sapete se esistono programmi che consentono di effettuare le valutazioni economiche come il calcolo del van ad esempio, come è possibile trovare per gli impianti fotovoltaici?

ciccio1987
31-01-2014, 15:11
Vi segnalo il seguente link Simulatoretee_car | KATACLIMA (http://www.kataclima.com/car/simulatoretee_car/), dove è possibile scaricare un file per calcolarsi velocemente il PES ed il numero di certificati bianchi cui si ha diritto.

alterego1975
31-01-2014, 16:30
Salve conoscete CHip 50 del gruppo ESPE? Mi sono imbattuto oggi in un loro impianto di cogenerazione ma non li conosco.

Grazie

biomassoso
11-06-2014, 23:04
come vedi dal PDF l'ESPE usa la gassificazione con tutti i problemi che questa si porta dietro

se interessa dai anche un'occhiata a questo (http://energiafutura-eu.webnode.it/proposta-cogenerazione/)